Age Discrimination in Hiring

9/15/2009 5:08 PM EDT

ummm... Jack?
At the last ESC show in Silicon Valley, most of the embedded engineers are old! The main problem we have here is that not many young engineers want to be in our field.

The new age engineers most likely are at:
- Google
- Yahoo
- Facebook
- Apple
.
... you get the idea!

9/16/2009 5:35 AM EDT

Basically,younger have more advantages than older,but olders also have their own advantages ,such as plentiful experient .In all ,It depends who suit for the position.

9/16/2009 11:28 AM EDT

Yes, age discrimination is no secret, in general. It's simple economics. A company has a labor budget and will usually not pay the salary an older engineer will usually require if the budget won't allow it. However, when budgets are flexible, I suppose the age bias will exist, for after all, it probably simple human nature.

9/16/2009 1:12 PM EDT

I agree. Older Bonds seem more sophisticated and wise, while younger Bonds appear foolish and cocky.

9/16/2009 4:21 PM EDT

... well, honestly, being 56 and 3/4, and now falling prey ( at a rapidly accelerating rate ) to all the nagging and cranky little hereditary ailments that have plagued my family for generations... I almost can't blame most of the prospective employers I've dealt with ( or have been dealt by )...

Still, this type of situation is one that's only slightly less offensive that that of one having at least one of one's career paths ( ...or possibly two ) purposefully and completely obliterated, all because a former job supervisor found himself unable to ram his own twisted version of... a particular holy book... down one's throat.

9/16/2009 11:40 PM EDT

As a 23 year old engineer interested in embedded systems an about to graduate, where are these places looking for embedded systems engineers krwada ?

I really love embedded systems development, but my school does not have a real focus on it and many companies in the OK area have no interest in it.

Living in OK is not on top of my list, but job fairs and so forth are the best sample I get of available jobs for EEs.

9/17/2009 12:16 PM EDT

To Kortuk;
Come to Silicon Valley! There are tons of jobs for young engineers who want to get into hardware. Most notably:
- Smartphone OS
- Networking gear
- Control systems for alternative energy
- Sensors and sensor networks

Silicon Valley includes the following municpalities:
- San Jose, (heart of Silicon Valley)
- Santa Clara
- Sunnyvale
- Mountain View
- Campbell
- Cupertino, (Home to Apple Computer)
- Fremont, (Home to alternative energy)
- Milpitas
...
And of course, there are embedded jobs in the SF Bay penninsula. The places I am talking about are:
- San Francisco
- South San Francisco
- Burlingame
- San Mateo

9/17/2009 1:53 PM EDT

Or is it that younger coders have a smaller salary figure/expectation - this doesn't mean that they are cheaper, but some employers don't understand this, just like they don't really understand the knowledge/experience/skill required to be truly effective in embedded.

9/17/2009 2:08 PM EDT

Most of the conversations I have had with hiring managers are filled with questions about what particular technologies I know. I never hear questions about design experience. Anyone can pick up a book and learn a technology but it takes years to develop the "gut knowledge" you get after designing products for many years. My personal feeling is that it is a question of cost. Experienced people are expensive (in any field) and most companies are under the false impression that if they have one experienced guy around to "babysit" the inexperienced engineers that it is the same as having most of their engineers experienced. Plus, it is cheaper! It is a gamble they are willing to make.
Another issue is the technology itself. Most experienced engineers have found what works and works very well. We embrace the new technologies of the day very cautiously because we have seen what jumping before studying causes and seen what a mess it creates. Experience says "show me the value added" first then lets talk about it.
As Andrew Weil states in his latest book (I am paraphrasing); you are not born with gray hair and wrinkles, you had to work for them so wear them with pride.

9/17/2009 4:35 PM EDT

Just why is there so much offshore engineering? With age comes salary. It is a no-brainer. So is it illegal to discriminate based on salary?

9/17/2009 5:43 PM EDT

Sure there is discrimination, but I think is is mileage discrimination rather than age discrimination.

The young'uns out of college have no track record and have to wave around their degrees and bits of paper. They can have a really hard time finding a job because they have no way to differentiate themselves from a planet full of graduates with the same qualifications but asking lower salaries.

As an older engineer (mid 40s), I have not shown my degree to anyone for the last 15 or so years. Instead I just give them a potted history of my experience.

Face it. Nobody really wants to hire an engineer: they're ugly and costly. What they want is to get value. They have a problem costing x and are willing to pay y to make that problem go away. Or they want to make a product to earn x and are willing to pay y to make it happen.

Learn to convey not so much your skills, but your ability to generate value. This doesn't just apply to getting a new job, but also when you're looking for salary increases etc.

If you can demonstrate that each year you're generating $10 of value for each $1 of cost then you're going to win.

If, instead, you're just full of buzzwords and skills, then you just become a commodity product and employers will shop on price, or for the cutest label or whatever.

If you're in your 40s and haven't yet established a niche and found a way to demonstrate value, then I humbly submit that you're probably in the wrong game. While you can cut the young'uns some slack because they're immature and inexperienced, I'd be severely worried, as a hirer, if a 40+ year old with 20 years in the industry still acted that way.

9/17/2009 9:06 PM EDT

As someone who was just downsized, let me relate what is really happening--there is a law against age discrimination. It is easily gotten around by simply giving severance pay in return for a confidential agreement signed by the employee being terminated that admits no bias on the part of the company and in which the employee agress not to sue or otherwise "denigrate" his soon to be former employer. The other option for the employee is to be terminated with no severance pay, and then having to decide whether or not to sue. WIthout some kind of pattern of behavior to show age discrimination, or a "smoking gun" in the form of an internal memorandum, such a law suit has little chance of suceeding, and even if it does, it can be a long time before any thing is gained by the employee.

Corporations large and small do this all the time.

9/17/2009 10:06 PM EDT

I always though age was not a problem in America as far as jobs were concerned.I mean you always could take a couple of years in really figuring out what you wanted to do with your life.

I am 27 (from India) and have loved electronics and DIY since high school. Having decided to make a career out of my hobby, i quit my 'non-embedded job' and went to school again.Now having graduated, i find that I'm not getting considered for such openings because my previous experience is not relevant and companies are having a hard time considering(or so i imagine)a 27 year old join in an entry-level position in embedded.

Ironically, i am getting offers for jobs based on my prior experience (which i don't want to take up).Sometimes life really gets you thinking what Paul Graham said about doing what you love (http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html) really makes sense, especially in the Indian context.

9/18/2009 1:39 PM EDT

Sean Connery has always been my favorite, old or young. :-)

9/23/2009 3:02 PM EDT

Age discrimination is a two way street. There are many opportunities which aren't open to younger workers, even if they have sufficient qualifications. Sadly, in many but not all states, age discrimination is illegal only against older workers.

10/21/2009 7:59 AM EDT

Hi folks,

I don't normally write to forums but this article struck a chord with me.

I've just turned 42 and look at least 10 years younger, I finished my Masters in Industrial Computing Systems (Real-Time based) in 2001 and a BEng(Hons) in Electrical & Electronic Engineering 1999, and I struggled to get into programming for 7 years. At my last company I had to start as a Test Engineer and after almost 3 years got a chance to move into software development. Don't ask me how, because I felt like a new student with no knowledge of programming.

I was involved with set-top-box development in C and C++, and also Symbian development, but I knew that I would never get any low-level development projects at that company as I really love assembly programming. I'm passionate about microcontrollers and anything embedded or low-level, but I've lost a lot of knowledge, and nowadays you're expected to program in C rather than assembly. Anyway after just over a year as a Software Engineer, I was one of a number of people made redundant due to the recession, and that was close to the time that new grads were coming out with up-to-date skills. This makes me feel like I'm on the outside looking in, because I feel I can't compete.

On the positive side I've gained a lot of new skills, but really how much can you learn in 1 year with just debugging experience and no software life-cycle experience? While looking for jobs, I've noticed the amount of skills required for just one position, and just how much are you expected to know? You can't learn it all. Well I haven't been sitting doing nothing, I'm taking the time to learn skills on the low-level side, but what I really need is a graduate/entry level role. So this brings me to my dilemma, how can I get a graduate-level job when I'm far from being a graduate, but not current enough to compete with all the other grads?

In closing, I refuse to despair, I think the key is to get a portfolio of moderately difficult projects under my belt in my own time, and target the right companies. I don't put my age on my CV, but will tell when asked (usually at interview stage). I now apply for graduate-level jobs because it can't hurt, and I hope that someone will give me a deserved break.

Good luck to all who might have a similar story!!

5/13/2011 2:20 PM EDT

Too bad we can't discriminate against OLD JUDGES esp. Clarence "Short and Curly" Thomas.

5/13/2011 2:30 PM EDT

Few jobs ago, I was laid off @40 along with guy who was close to retirement. Turned out, I was the youngest in my group and he was the oldest. I think they laid me off to avoid a discrimination suit from the other guy. Thanks a lot.

I'm happy to report that the company is now in circling the drain and I have a great job as a consultant.

Engineers over 40 should turn to consulting. You get to be your own boss and now your age and experience work for you, not against you.

All jobs are temporary now. If you think you are a permanent employee, you're fooling yourself.

effyou Clarence Thomas.

12/18/2011 2:06 AM EST

I am a forty-two year old female. I work as a drafter in an engineering company in central New Jersey. Bases on my daily interactions with engineers of all ages, I would just like to state honesty for the record. The most productive and accurate engineers I have ever done work for within my company (who NO WAY discriminate based on age) have been all the older engineers. The don't waste time, they WORK when they are at work and they know what they are doing, much more so than the younger engineers that work in my company. I like all the guys I work with and the younger guys are all good people but HANDS DOWN, the older guys, have it ALL OVER the younger guys. I'm just a drafter so I know many of you will think I'm not entitled to my opinion but BELIEVE ME, I work for both and the older men definitely win, hands down as the best engineers, by far...

12/18/2011 2:09 AM EST

The young guys will point out all my type-o's and say ha! look how stupid......lol. Careless type-o's guys..... :)